Can't Use the Eyes of My Heart

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Peter Lovett on March 28, 2011 at 8:37am

Hi Bradley,

    I went to the website that you mentioned. It was interesting. It brought up many good points that could convince one to that view.

    In my experience, using the eyes of my heart, is to visualize through my spirit.  I don't know your background, so if you are born-again and have been Baptized in the Spirit, then you have been given the tools to work with. I was in a similar place, being both of those from the beginning of my walk with God, but still was unable to grasp this concept. When  I first took How to Hear God's Voice, I struggled through the part on vision. I am a cabinetmaker, so I need the ability to visualize, which I had, but there was another barrier for me. 

    I grew up in an Intellectual Atmosphere. My Intelligence was my deliverer. If I could grasp it through my Intellect, it was real, if I couldn't it was not real. This was a great hinderance to me, but I didn't realize it till I was freed from it.

    I see in the article a lot of logic, but it is based in psychology, rather than the Spirit. Psychology is the study of the soul. In the world it may make sense, for the world's spirits are not alive to God, but in the Kingdom of God, it is through the Spirit that we fellowship with God.

    So the gift of visualizing  through the psyche, will play out one way, but through the Spirit, possibly another. What you are looking for, in my experience , is in the realm of the Spirit.

     The whole concept of the New Covenant, is to experience Life, through the Spirit, rather than the natural. This is why we go to God through Christ for He is the manifestation of the Spirit of God in the flesh. As we surrender our bodies as living sacrifices to God, He takes those bodies and quickens them in the Spirit.(Rom 8:11)

   Even though that author had some interesting points, they led me back to analyzing the issue through my intellect.

This usually leads me to a dead end, a blank screen, as it were.

      What I would recommend is for you to ask God to develop your visual abilities through your spirit, your spirit man. He is born in us, the Christ in us, so that we may go to places that the natural can't see. (Isaiah 55:8,1Cor. 2:14-16).

      As Mark says in his course HHGV, go in believing that God desires to give this to you when you ask, Quiet yourself down and look to Jesus. He is the Author and Perfecter of this Faith we walk in and He knows how to bring this forth out of you. It all exists in you, already, that is to be able to see and hear with Spiritual eyes and ears, and he desires for you to have it. He will draw it out of you as you spend time with Him. 

    This is what I did, and I learned through the Holy Spirit's tutorship, how to Hear and See in the Spirit.   

   I see so many Wonderful things now that I understand where to apply my eyes, and that is through my spirit.

Let me know how it goes.

your brother in Christ

Permalink Reply by Joy Rustan on October 8, 2011 at 12:20am

Hi Bradley,

Seeing pictures in my head takes alot of experience.  I first started out seeing only the feet of my Lord when I would talk to Him. Now I can see more. Many times I see His face but often I feel Him there in the room with me and know what He is doing without seeing His face or form. he tells me that it takes more time with Him to see Him. It's like a relationship that needs blooming and needs time to make it happen.

Blessings,

Joy

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Streeter on November 6, 2011 at 12:30pm

Hi Peter

I really liked what you have to say here and found it very helpful for myself.  I'm glad you went to the site to check it out as I wanted to but was concerned about where it might lead as I'm not very good on the internet and don't want to be running into problems with my computer.

HOw can I copy what you said here off or transfer it.

YOur sister in Christ :)

Permalink Reply by Peter Lovett on November 6, 2011 at 5:54pm

Hi Jennifer,

Good to hear that spoke to you. I dragged my pointer on my computer and highlighted the text of my words. I then used Command C ( I have a Mac) and copied and the text to my Clipboard memory. I then made a new Word document and pasted it (Command V) to the blank document. If you have a PC, it is the Alt key I believe. Then I saved it to my computer.

I see that you are connecting with my Dear wife Maritza in her Journaling through Art Group. She loves to share that vision with others.

We have a new website that goes into more details at http://www.changedbyhispresence.org/ if you are interested.

There are different areas that you can go to. Check out Abby's Rest on that site. Also my new book, The Wind and the Trial is shown there with a link to Amazon.com. It should be available next week.

This book goes into some further detail of healing from intellectualism as well as walking in the Spirit.

We also facilatate Mark Virkler's Four Keys to Hearing God's Voice at our Church.

May God Bless you as you search Him out,

As it says in Hebrews 11:6 (I celebrate today as Faith Day 11/6/11) He will reward you with Christ as you dilligently seek Him,

Peter

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Streeter on November 10, 2011 at 11:21am

Hi Peter,

I went to the site you recommended, as I was interested.  Thank you.  I went there this morning because I thought it would help me in my decision making.  Now I really need to pray.  I will order your book also.

FYI regarding decision making.  I'm not sure what you've read that I have written, but I have been in the pursuit of "...not I but Christ in me..." for maybe about 10 years.  It lead me to these books THE New YOU  by Dr Lewis Gregory; Principles of Spiritual Growth by Miles Stanford (this sounds like intectualism but I don't believe it is, however, I haven't read your book on intlectualism) Grace Message now P intertwoined in all of this has been the Grace message which JOseph Prince is preaching as undeserved FAVOR  which some would say is easy believism.  But prior to my pursuit of Christ in me I read Handbook to Happiness by Charles Solomon and have been following GRACEFELLOWSHIP INTERNATIONAL per the their website (in my pursuit of understanding grace for living the Christain life), and a few books by Nee and Andrew Murray (I think I was reading these to learn/understand abiding).

But ultimately, all of this had to do with trying to live the Christian life and the struggle Paul talks about in Romans which I think I'm beginning to grasp more and more (maybe this is what Paul meant by glory to glory.  I really liked what Charles Leiter wrote on Romans on the Puritan Fellowship site.  

Now from GRACEFELLOWSHIP there is a new mailing site by Dr. Stephen Phenney (I think he may be a son-in law and involved in taking over Soloman's ministry).  Anyway, I just read (what I guess a person call)  his beliefs on discipleship, Disillusionment Of Discipleship.  As I studied it, I think it clarified for me what service and blessed to be a blessing may mean for me.  

To digress or complicate what I'm trying to communicate more I've been discussing grace, obedience, service with leader of a church "Life Group" l've been loosely involved with for the past almost three years.  I became involved with my husband (who tends towards our common Catholic roots and who I've been married to for 37 years) who left shortly after we started attending with the Army after being retired (another story).  This church is Berean which I begain attending, alone (which is how it has been for most of our married life) because we had recently moved back to our home town; I was hoping and thinking my husband might attend as it was not "Charismatic."  It's very Bible based and I think you might say intellectaul in approach.

Through this group we have been following Charles Stanley's Life Principles and tried to follow McArthur (which I was totally apposed to-McArthur), which I was OK with till I became more immessed in the grace/"Favor" message through Joseph Prince per Cable.  

Also I've been involved with reading books from the Grace Evangical Society and getting their newsletter.  Again, in my pursuit of clarifying my belief regarding grace.  I think this is a very intellectual but very sincere approach to Grace.  Robert Wilkins the founder has attempted to debate McArthur on this as McArthur calls this "easy believism."

Anyway because of my personal pursuits I feel I've been recently at odds with the direction Stanley takes in some of his principles related to obedience, service, prayer, and accountablitlity, and confession of sin. And now because of my recent involvment with the Koinonia Network and especially your group I'm trying to distill and/or sence how the Lord is leading. I got and read How To Hear God's Voice because prayer was a discipline in which I set aside time specifically to get to the point of intercession as I believed this was the most important thing I could do for other Christians (but found this time pretty much unfulling except that I was doing what I thought I "should" be doing.  Plus, I felt I was pretty much a failure at it as I was never and have never been very faithful with a specific "prayer time."  Since I joined Koinonia I've begun to attempt to practice this.  Prior to this I was stuck on the journaling (which I've never really liked to do) and I did not have anyone to read what I wrote.  I felt this was really important as I was concerned about discerning what I thought I was hearing or seeing (vision).

And maybe again to complicate things/what I'm trying to communicate I joined your wife's group as had come to believe though a time of prayer that the Lord was saying He would meet me and maybe minister to me in my art work.  Up until then and for many years I've struggled with my creative gifts verses being in

secular world of helping professions.  There seems to be such a need for the gift of "helps" and not much of a "need" for "art".  HOwever, this was another reason I began attending Berean as they consider the vilsual arts to be a ministry.  There have been many roadblocks to me pursuing being creative/doing fiber art but I was so blessed when I thought the Lord was saying He would come to me (about three years ago) because up until then I had been looking at how I could justify spending my time on fiber art when there seems to be so many needs in the church.  This Berean church is very service oriented and has a very structured service program.

 I'm having difficulty going back to read through this, to make corrections etc.

I believe I started out trying to explain where I'm at in my walk and what has lead me so far because I feel I'm at the point I need to not be going in so many directions and come down on what the Lord would have me "do" each day (which maybe is what you are saying with your quote of Hb 11:6) and my thoughts (which may have to do with taking every thought captive to Christ).  

My thoughts are obvious not very liner and I've taken to a Metacog form of journaling and now maybe fiber art  (which could be way of coming to the "stillness" needed for hearing God's voice).  This is what I think I really wanted in prayer was to hear God speak to me personally rather than intercede.  It sounds like and I do believe I've been a "selfer" as Dr Phinney puts it and very much an intellectualizer.  So to me the place to start would be the "Hearing God Approach."  To a certain extent I would be able to incorporate fiber art (which can be very fulfilling personally).  This would place me on the road of "Christ in me."  Which I think  Soloman, Joseph Prince, and Phinney are calling "The Exchanged Life."  And maybe this is what you are trying to explain, and has to do with what you have been through and call intellectualism.  

And now you are at the point you have written a book and are starting a ministry with your Wife; am I understanding this right?

I'm wondering if I would be easier to understand if I used a different format when writing.  It is very much a flow of thought which is also how I talk; lots of run on sentences.  My husband a probably many others find it very frustrating.  I think because it is very difficult to follow.  It would probably help if I edited further than just spelling errors.  NOw I'm just tired have a headache (I think from spending so much time looking at the computer screen) and want to just stop.

So, hopefully you will be able to follow this.  I can always clarify.  And maybe you could have your wife read this as she may have a brain that works more like mine.  I'm sure some where in all of this the Lord is speaking to me.  As I believe He has assured me, "He will complete what He has started."  Here's to "Better Relationships."  A quote on a painting given to me by a Korean art student many years ago. Thank you for your words of blessing. 

When you say searching Him out is this different than me being in search of the truth or in search of Him?  I'm sure you meant for this to be a comforting statement but it makes me wonder; am I on the road with Him or on the road going towards HIm trying to find Him.  Or maybe it's like Paul said 

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Streeter on November 10, 2011 at 12:20pm

It's me........

I think I was following you regarding copy and paste but don't know where the clipboard memory is. 

Thanks for trying to help me.

Jennifer

 

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Streeter on November 10, 2011 at 12:24pm

Also, I think I finished up on my long discussion message today regarding this discussion on Your Own Page.

And I think I'm learning how all this works :)

Permalink Reply by Peter Lovett on November 10, 2011 at 1:22pm

Hi Jennifer,

         You have many interesting questions. I Know God’s Heart and He wants to answer them for you. He Loves it when we search after Him with all our Hearts!

         He has given me the gift of curiosity and when it is filled with his Holy Spirit, it takes me to many Wonderful Places. We get to explore His Heart due to our Relationship with Him in Christ. He is our Daddy and our Inheritance.

         I was raised to be analytical in a “Preachers Family” So I developed an “Intellectual” approach to God, that encompassed much of my life until the last few years. My Dad was the Senior pastor of the Church which was a “liberal” believing church who did not believe in the Blood of Jesus. This church was strong Social Gospel background and the author of that Theology, Walter Rauschenbusch, was an eclectic theologian who took his beliefs from many different religions and theologies. They believed that “blood sacrifice” was archaic, so they chose “other ways” to teach the Bible, mixing them with the various thoughts in the world.

         I grew up in this and thought this was pleasing to God. I was fervent in this frame of thinking and tried to live My Christian walk in this intellectual thinking. I was not aware of the belief about the Blood of Jesus until about four years ago when I started researching Social Gospel. There are many good things that they believe, such as helping your brother, but I found that without the Power of Christ in me, I would have to accomplish these Myself! This became too heavy and I cried out to God. He answered me with:

 

Come unto me,

 all you that labor and are heavy laden,

and I will give you rest.

Matthew 11:28

 

         When I went to Him and emptied as much of myself as I could at that time (for we grow from Glory to Glory) He came in and made more of Himself in me. He healed me of my dependence on Intellectualism and exposed the real me who was very right brained and intuitive. This dramatically changed my life in relating to God, for my intuition is like a computer download that fills in many of the blank spaces left by my analytical thinking.

         With this foundation, I can begin to answer some of your questions.

 

         I believe that God uses our Creative side, in our spirits to commune with us. I do not throw away the analytical part but I submit both sides to His Spirit. I do this one way by checking my journaling or thoughts with Scripture to confirm the Truth of them.

As He leads you through Scripture and shows you His Heart, it will not be as foreboding as some see it. I have come to see His Word as Christ flowing in Relationship with me. As a dance that We flow together in, He is the Word become flesh bringing into me His Life. I AM His Bride.

         These I paint as pictures for I believe that they express a deeper realization of His Life that He wants to express.

         This is superior to only analyzing in the Natural mind for that is limited to my understanding. When Christ moves in me as One with me, I get to share in the Glory, or Revelation of what He sees. As the Bride, I get to become the “manifestor” of His Life even as a woman “manifests” the Love that she shares with her husband in the expression of children.

         God’s Word in us is a Seed that is planted in our hearts. It is like a child given to a woman who was barren (the woman in this case is the natural soul without Christ as her husband) Sarah was barren, yet because Abraham believed, she became pregnant and had Isaac. But this becomes a type of the Word of God being planted in us. In our Natural selves we are barren, but in Christ, “All Things are Possible”

         These Seeds grow and become plants that bear fruit even giving us the “things to say and do to become Righteous”

         I saw in a vision, Maritza walking over to a tree that God had planted in her heart. She walked up to a flower on the tree and read something that was written on the flower that gave her the next step to take in her ministry. God was giving her practical things and understanding to cause her ministry to grow. How’s that for “Journaling by Art!”

This is just a taste of what God is doing in our lives!

As to the Clipboard, mine is not visible, but it "holds" the copied material until you paste it on another document.

Maritza and I are glad to share our thoughts with you.

Blessings,

Peter